The “real” victms of online piracy

Unfortunate story but I don’t buy it. It sounds like the usual writer’s story where the causal link between appearance on Pirate sites and lack of sales is assumed to be direct to the nth degree.

I also don’t accept the significance of the claims that a) she never sees any incoming links from pirate sites and b) Pirates draw traffic from my site, and cost me millions of hits annually.

a) Visitors are not going to visit her site directly from a pirate site. That is just stupid.
b) She offers no evidence whatsoever of this. I do wonder if she ever got a million hits.

It is far too lazy a knee jerk reaction to blame pirating for everyone’s woes. The market has changed continuously. The behaviour patterns of the target market has changed significantly. There has been a constant change in habits and competition. It is pure hubris to assume that one’s success will be constant and any time that constant success dips, it must be because of something nasty happening.

Howard,

What you say has some truth to it. You know what else is true? Stealing people’s work is wrong. Pirates are breaking the law. People who pirate like to justify its exsistance but it doesn’t change the fact you are stealing.

If you don’t pay the creators, there will be no creators.

“It sounds like the usual writer’s story where the causal link between appearance on Pirate sites and lack of sales is assumed to be direct to the nth degree.”

I think, for *some* of them, it is direct. Because people pirate to check out their work, and then find out they’re awful and thus don’t bother to buy from them. So yes, piracy made their sales go down because many previous sales were people taking a chance on them. And by pirating, they no longer have to.

On the other hand, if you have a quality product and work proactively to engage fans instead of trashing them, piracy can help: http://newteleread.com/wordpress/ebooks/steve-lieber-discusses-underground-piracy-sales/

It’s amazing to me how little respect so many consumers have for creators, even those whom they personally consider worth collecting. Unfortunately, the tools of the internet–built around a 100%-trust mind-set, and taken full advantage of by those who can’t be trusted not to take advantage of every opportunity given them–has resulted in a system that punishes indie creators more than it helps them, and prevents people with legitimate talent from profiting from that talent.

In short, it makes their work irrelevant, and their efforts pointless. And some people seem to think that’s a good thing.

Christopher I fully agree with you. But the world is the way it is. Outrage will not change it. Torrents and pirating cannot be eradicated or significantly reduced. It is simply not possible.

Steven I am afraid I don’t agree with any of the points you make. I believe consumers have great respect for creators and want to buy legitimate products. This has been proven over and over again in the Music industry. Your conclusion is also unmerited.

Howard, unfortunately, your saying so doesn’t make it so. As Colleen points out, the “masses of consumers that will beat a path to your door” thanks to free downloads… the “respect” that results in money paid for every download… just isn’t happening for the indie creator. All that talk is wishful thinking, anecdotes about “the other guy” and “the market,” with no proof that it is actually happening.

IOW, everybody says they pay for their downloads… just as they like to say they don’t speed. We know what the reality is.

And for the record: How many musicians and bands made any money BEFORE a major label signed them up? And what happened to the rest of them?

Petra said, On the other hand, if you have a quality product and work proactively to engage fans instead of trashing them, piracy can help: http://newteleread.com/wordpress/ebooks/steve-lieber-discusses-underground-piracy-sales/

Lieber’s books are all available as paper books that you can find in the bookstores. He makes his profit from his paper books.

A vast majority of writers DON’T have their books in paper, or if the books are in paper, they aren’t in bookstores.

If your books are only available digitally, piracy sure as heck doesn’t help the bottom line.

As to getting a sample of the writer, most have sample chapters on their websites, and Amazon and other sites allow you to look at the first pages for free. You don’t have to pirate it for a free sample.

And authors ARE insulted by the theft, some to the point where they’ve quit writing. Why write when you make no money, and your “fans” treat your work as if it and you are worthless?

@marilynn said “authors ARE insulted by the theft, some to the point where they’ve quit writing”

Marilynn, could you please provide the names of writers who have quit writing? I keep hearing this type of comment made but it almost sounds like a writer’s urban legend. It would be interesting to actually have some bona fide examples of this. Thanks.

Reader@work, it’s none of your dang business what their names are.

They are friends of mine so I will not invade their privacy or violate their confidences.

Steven I don’t see much evidence of your assertions. The only evidence that has been established in the Music industry claims is that there is no evidence whatsoever that pirating has reduced sales. No one has claimed that people who download illegal copies pay for them so I don’t understand your vehement statement that “everybody says they pay for their downloads”. I never said this. In fact I have downloaded illegal files many times myself.

I would also like to know who has ever made the claim that “masses of consumers that will beat a path to your door” thanks to free downloads” I have never read that nor been told that.

So unless you or others can come up with some actual evidence that downloading is reducing sales significantly I will stick with my own beliefs, based on personal experience and research on the Music Industry experience.
Your ‘Indies’ will need to find a way of letting go this obsession with the myth and get a grip on reality. As I said above and anyone in the know will tell you, pirating or torrenting is here to stay and is going nowhere. You need to develop strategies to deal with it.

Reader@work there are no writers who have done so. And even if there were they would be no loss to the world with that kind of pitiful attitude. They clearly would be unlikely to have any writing talent. Writers are not losing any money to the vast majority of the tiny amount of pirating that is going on. There is no evidence of it. It is nothing but a delusion and a deception to think that each person who pirates a product is a lost sale or anything remotely like it. This has been one of the most exposed lies of the Music Industry’s claims over the last 15 years where any independent research has been concerned. Even in the marginal slice where piracy has been shown to have displaced sales it has always been where music was priced at the highest premium levels.
I have many personal experiences of the Music downloading habit. My son’s friend next door, for example, downloaded about 25 Gb (!) of music in the last three years. Does anyone with a brian think he would have paid for those tracks if online piracy was not in existence ? Perhaps these same people could explain why this same boy has spent about three times more than any of his friends on buying legit CDs in that time ? I have seen his collection and know his parents. He is typical of most teenagers.

If writers and indie publishers and publishers of all colours spent more time dealing with the issue in the way they are advised by people who have seen the experience of the music industry, instead of being suckered by the fantasy being fed to them, they would probably be far more successful now and in the future.
The only sector where piracy is likely to hit eBooks sales is the sector where we have so often discussed here on Teleread. That sector is where eBooks are being grossly and insanely over priced at, or in excess of, the price of paper books where readers are well aware that they are being ripped off – or those who are insulted, rightly so, by the use of DRM or geographical restrictions. Where money is lost because of these reasons I have absolutely no sympathy for those involved.

@marilynn said “it’s none of your dang business what their names are”

Sorry Marilynn, I completely disagree with you. Let me just start by saying I do not condone piracy, so let’s get that out of the way first in our continued dialogue. However, if anyone wants to use the claim that piracy has made writers quit writing as you have in your previous postings, you are definitely going to need to name examples to support your assertation. Otherwise, most will simply take your comment with nothing more than a grain of salt and label it as more PR being heaped on the complex, emotional issue of piracy. On the other hand, if those who have quit writing would step forward, that would help show that piracy is hurting writers. Yes, I know, this point should be common sense, but claims of financial hardship are always stronger when faces or names can be attached to the issue.

Wow, some strong feelings here.

I think consumers should respect the right of the author to offer her work in a venue she believes is most appropriate. If she believes that uploading to pirate sites will help her career, that should be here choice. If she chooses to attempt to run an advertiser-supported free site and wants as much traffic directly rather than siphoned off by pirate sites, that should be her right too. She may be wrong about whether pirate sites contribute to her sales. It doesn’t seem to me, though, that it’s up to the pirate site to fix this for her.

Making a living through creativity is hard. For better or worse, though, it’s something that we in America are historically good at. I’d like to let artists work their business model rather than being pirated ‘for their own good.’

Rob Preece
Publisher

Hi Rob, I believe you will find 100% agreement with your sentiments here.

Reader@work, if you share your friends’ confidences and names with others, then you are a very poor friend. I try to be a good friend.

Those who have walked away from writing don’t look back because it hurts too much, don’t feel a need to justify themselves or their decisions, and certainly don’t want to air their hurt so some pirates can dance with joy, and some pirates do.

My anecdotal evidence is as valid as yours so let others make their own minds up. I really don’t care.

There is always more than 2 sides to the scales of life, and in the end, there is always an equal and opposite power that balances each and every truth and perspective on life, as vastly different as the two are. In the end, we all make our own decisions, and if you want to discuss right and wrong, I suggest you take it up with whatever God(s) you pray to. In the end, the choice of an individual, no matter the influence, is their own subjective reality and can only be blamed upon that one person. “Universal Truth is not measure in Mass Appeal,” and though I agree with most of the compelling arguments set forth, in the end, Marleen… you weaken your argument with your sense of pride, and all your friends with their ‘so-called’ hurt. I can only pray they find self-help and understand any kind of hurt from such a thing is a selfish and a very vain sense of importance. 2, on the flipside of the Universal Truth quote, the masses often decide the most simplistic of approaches, whether intellectually or conceptually… and only offer the most slimey of realities that its a matter of IGNORANCE instead of the fact that its a damn good comic and HOPEFULLY, those worth the breath will know how a good product can reach out to a person… and I would never, EVER have known such talent, genius and humanity if not for the voice of the people and their demand. If not for their freedom, I personally would never have supported the artists who created them for I DONT WASTE MY LIFE AND MONEY ON ADVERTISING AND MAJORITY RULE. I HAVE KIDS TO FEED. And there is nothing I cant stand more than garbage when it should be recycled!!

There are points on both sides, as well as concerns, as in any discussion such as this. Theft is theft. Unfortunately, there is no best way to monitor or control illicit use of copyrighted material in either printed or digital form.

If I purchase a paperback book (pBook) or an eBook, I have much the same outlets to abuse the strict, literal use of copyright. I don’t know of many pBook buyers who do NOT swap and share their books with friends and relatives. Some few they ultimately keep, others are donated to libraries where they may receive dozens of readings, all for the purchase of a single copy. Many libraries have a small section of donated paperbacks that are not cataloged and available on a ‘take one, leave one’ basis.

With eBooks, distribution is also uncontrolled except by DRM coding techniques which are more invasive and restrictive than with pBooks. Yes, it is possible to remove the DRM coding in its current state of sophistication, but re-distribution is thus restricted to among the same small group of online friends, as permanent web sites are subject to legal action for unauthorized access to copyrighted materials. I cannot, legally, share my DRM’ed-eBook with my daughter unless I loan her my eReader as well.

A pBook has a physical life-limit dependent, in part, upon the quality of the binding and treatment of the users over time. I have pBooks dating back to my college days which are all but unreadable because the binding glue has hardened and released the pages…planned obsolescence, I guess. But not many pBooks are ‘keepers’ in terms of bookshelf or coffee-table display. You read them and pass them on.

There are also abuses from foreign countries. Many copyright laws are less strict in European and Asian countries than in the U.S. Politicians are ‘bought and sold’ by big publishing companies in the U.S., and a recent Supreme Court decision has opened the door for endless extensions of U.S. copyright limits voted for by nameless politicians in closed-door sessions. eBooks are thus often available from one country but not another, while international laws are all but useless. Electronic software duplication is rampant in (especially) Asian markets, although language considerations render eBooks less susceptible or marketable.

So the potential for abuse has existed since the invention of the printing press. There are far too many interesting pBooks and eBooks to be able to read them all in a lifetime. The question each of us should ask is if we have given the author adequate compensation for his/her efforts, or are we cheating the system. I pay for my copyright-active material after shopping for a fair price. And, yes, eBook restrictions have actually increased my reading costs because I cannot share a good fiction novel among my friends.

@Marilynn Byerly, Reader@work has a valid point about justifying arguments with evidence. You are in a difficult position as I think your points about confidences and feelings of hurt are appropriate, but you can’t turn around and use those confidences as “evidence” for any arguments you are making if you can’t provide any further details than your anonymous friends. And it is obvious that you do care about this topic since your postings are so passionate (and appropriately so given your viewpoint). Most people are willing to keep an open mind and seriously consider your thoughts and arguments (and other individual’s as well) as long as you can provide something more than anecdotes that are hearsay.

Howard,
As you state here:

“So unless you or others can come up with some actual evidence that downloading is reducing sales significantly I will stick with my own beliefs, based on personal experience and research on the Music Industry experience.”

Your beliefs are exactly that–beliefs–your experiences are, as you say, personal, you have no more “evidence” that piracy has improved sales significantly, and continuing to say it doesn’t make it any more than your “personal belief.”

And as I suggested earlier, the music industry is not the books industry, the similarities are largely superficial and mostly unconnected, so you cannot make valid assumptions on the financial realities of one based on the other.

Digital authors (like me) can give you examples of heavy downloads through pirated sites and torrented files, followed by minimal or no sales and lack of profits. My most acclaimed ebook has so far made me the least amount of money, thanks to this issue.

What evidence do you have that any authors (other than a few already print-published authors) has made a significant increase in digital sales thanks to piracy? I’m sure the rest of us authors would like to hear it.

Sure, I’d love to give you proof, but I can’t, and I’ve found it impossible to get my writing friends and acquaintances to come forward about pirating and other sh*t that writers have to put up with these days.

Those writers who do come forward, like the Colleen Doran in the article above, are discounted.

The real points that need to be recognized aren’t the numbers, anyway.

Here are the important points.

No matter what the justification you make up, pirating is morally wrong . One of the major tenants of most religions and civilization itself is “Thou shalt not steal.” Copyrighted digital documents are property so it is stealing when you pirate and when you download without payment.

Pirating is destructive to both the individual writers in the short term and readers in the long term.

Writers love to write, but creating a novel or book is physically and emotionally taxing, appallingly time consuming and expensive– the average professional writer has paid for years of writing courses, organization fees, promotional costs, etc., in the hopes of not only writing but making a decent profit at writing.

If the author doesn’t have recompense financially as well as the respect and feedback of fans, the writer stops writing, and readers have less to read.

If the pirates are actual readers, they are hurting themselves by stopping the writers they enjoy from writing.

Despite the nonsense many say about pirating helping writers and publishers, pirating has been one of the major roadblocks in the conversion of books into a digital market.

For example, the major publishers of science fiction and fantasy publishing were some of the last publishers to enter the ebook markets because they were the worst victims of pirates. Their digital books were those tied to a specific ereader and heavy DRM when they did come out.

SF/F epublishers were the last to enter the market for the same reason.

Meanwhile, the big romance publishers and epublishers were the first and most successful to enter the market because their readers paid for the product and cared enough and were smart enough to know that pirating would hurt their “reads” and authors.

As to the above information, I’ve been in epublishing for almost thirteen years and publishing for thirty so it’s not just facts, it’s personal history.

Well said Mark. I tend to disagree with Marilynn on most of these topics 🙂 but it is completely issue driven and I have complete respect for her views and writings. I actually believe that anecdotal evidence is well worth discussing. I really do believe that. But wider evidence is usually, though not always, more powerful.
These are emotionally charged issues, especially for small time writers and I also respect that. I guess that, along with many others, I am frustrated that a complete ‘story’ about pirating and it’s damage to writers has been constructed by an industry and sold to it’s writers despite the lack of evidence and despite evidence to the contrary in the music industry. I believe it has created a degree of resentment that is not justified by the facts. Everyone here, I believe, want writers to earn their due and I am no exception. It is how that is achieved that is the core of the debate.
On the issue of confidentiality above I am not convinced of the argument because writers arrive and leave every day of the week. They do so for a million reasons and often one issue that is convenient is a front for other personal issues. Writing is not easy, I know it, and I appreciate that writers are hyper sensitive about other writer’s plight. As an unsuccessful (to date) writer I don’t share that sensitivity. As a reader I believe that there are more than enough writers being published and nothing significant to be lost should some abandon it.
I truly believe that if the Publishing industry can get it’s act together and sort out the DRM, geographical and pricing issues then the future is incredibly bright for writers of all kinds and piracy will remain background noise to a successful industry.

Sure, I’d love to give you proof, but I can’t, and I’ve found it impossible to get my writing friends and acquaintances to come forward about pirating and other sh*t that writers have to put up with these days.

Those writers who do come forward, like the Colleen Doran in the article above, are discounted because real numbers are impossible to get for either side of the argument. Writers think their and other writers as well as their publishers’ personal experiences and selling figures count as evidence, but the other side does not for various reasons, but they still claim the facts and numbers are on their side.

The real points that need to be recognized aren’t the numbers, anyway.

Here are the important points.

No matter what justification you make up, pirating is morally and socially wrong . One of the major tenants of most religions and one of the major rules and obligations of civilization is “Thou shalt not steal.” Copyrighted digital documents are property so it is stealing when you pirate and when you download without payment.

Pirating is destructive to both the individual writers in the short term and readers in the long term.

Writers love to write, but creating a novel or book is physically and emotionally taxing, appallingly time consuming and expensive– the average professional writer has paid for years of writing courses, organization fees, promotional costs, etc., in the hopes of not only writing competently but making a decent profit at writing.

If the author doesn’t have recompense financially as well as the respect and feedback of fans, the writer stops writing, and readers have less to read.

If the pirates are actual readers, they are hurting themselves by stopping the writers they enjoy from writing.

The statement above about writers being a dime a dozen is patently untrue. Can Joe the Beginning Writer replace JK Rowling, Stephen King, or Nora Roberts in skill and genius of storytelling ability? Can Sue the Craftless be equal to a professional writer who has perfected their craft for many years? Can Mark the Hack be equal to someone who writes with depth and meaning?

For those of you who are such poor readers that you think all writers are equal, let me tell you the answer to the above questions is no for those of us who can tell good writing from bad.

Despite the nonsense many say about pirating helping writers and publishers, pirating has been one of the major roadblocks in the conversion of books into a digital market.

For example, the major publishers of science fiction and fantasy publishing were some of the last publishers to enter the ebook markets because they were the worst victims of pirates. Their digital books were those tied to a specific ereader and heavy DRM when they did come out.

SF/F epublishers were the last to enter the market for the same reason.

Meanwhile, the big romance publishers and epublishers were the first and most successful to enter the market because their readers paid for the product and cared enough and were smart enough to know that pirating would hurt their “reads” and authors.

[As to the above information, I’ve been in epublishing for almost thirteen years and publishing for thirty so it’s not just facts, it’s personal history. ]

I don’t think it an unreasonable or illogical to say that what hurt readers, authors, and publishers in the past will hurt them in the future as the digital markets open up and the paper markets disappear.